Banning Hackers

[BludShoT]

This is a discussion copied and carried over from the T forums.

There are various sources for hacking bans such as:

- Old STA hacking bans (don't know if these actually exist though)
- ClanBase hacking bans
- UZL hacking bans
- UAA hacking bans


This thread is for discussing if we should carry over any of those bans or ignore them and only maintain our own lists. (Obviously even if we do use any of those we will *also* maintain our own lists.)

Also, this thread discusses about if a player is caught hacking in a pub or otherwise outside of FTW matches, should they then be banned from FTW (to which I think the answer is a resounding yes!)


Proposed rule:

If a league player is established to be cheating in a non-league gameserver (Urban Terror Only) while the league is in-season and:
- the evidence of cheating is established (administrator decision)
- the player's identity is confirmed by reliable means (IP, GUID, etc.)

then that player will be treated as though they cheated in a match and permanently banned from the league.

STA had a similar rule. Should it remain? Discuss.

(if you have just minor language changes you can probably save it)

how about before the season started
however it was recent before
maybe like about a month before the competition started
and the evidence was 100% guilty
would the rule still take effect?

how about before the season started
however it was recent before
maybe like about a month before the competition started
and the evidence was 100% guilty
would the rule still take effect?

not as written but the in-season part could be adjusted.

a hacker is a hacker. If he could get away with it once, he could possibly think he could do it again. I believe that during season, if he is caught hacking in a server - he is meaning to do it on purpose....whats to stop him from doing it during a match? If a person is legit enough to not hack during a match he should be legit enough to not hack while in a PUB.

If a person is caught cheating, and there is proof that they are 100% guilty of using it I say they should be ban from the league regardless whether it be in a pub, scrim, or match. Cheaters will cheat anywhere they can.

i think anyone on the UAA ban list should be banned to start
any STA specific bans should be disregarded

Yeah we should have a rule like this. I don't know what the exact wording should be but yeah, if you are caught cheating in UrT then you are a cheater and should be banned.

We just have to make sure its legit and not a witchhunt and then its ok.

{arizma"]Yes, this is a good idea.
You hack, you're out

I would not trust UAA bans. I say this being a member of UAA. I've seen more than a few demos which are obviously clean get voted as hacking. It's fine for blatant hackers, but those guys are never going to be in clans anyway because they don't have the skill. If you want a 2 mile long ban list of random kids who play for one day and hack, then leave, yeah, use it. But in that list are good players who are caught by the lazy/bored staff of UAA.

I would not trust UAA bans. I say this being a member of UAA. I've seen more than a few demos which are obviously clean get voted as hacking. It's fine for blatant hackers, but those guys are never going to be in clans anyway because they don't have the skill. If you want a 2 mile long ban list of random kids who play for one day and hack, then leave, yeah, use it. But in that list are good players who are caught by the lazy/bored staff of UAA.

that is very true...
what would be your suggestion? start from scratch?

I think using it is a good idea, combined with an appeals system. So, basically we blanket accept the UAA bans, BUT, players may appeal the "UAA transferred ban" with FTW.

Then, if this happens, the admins (or anti-cheat team) can look into the appeal, find out what evidence the UAA really had and then make a FTW decision.

That way you keep out all the retards and benefit from the good work UAA does, but still get to use FTW's own judgement if an appeal is made. The evidence could even be shown to the clan leaders / players to help decide "ok this isn't good enough evidence, I don't think he really cheats".

I think the chances of someone from the UAA ban list who is a real hacker playing in fuhtoggle is very, very low. I think there were maybe 2 or 3 people using cheats in STA this season, so it's far from a huge epidemic. If someone's caught in fuhtoggle, they're banned. It's just going to have to be done quicker than STA by having people actually watch the demos that are submitted.:)

for hacking, I think an anti-cheat is the way to go.

In the event that this is not possible, public demo review and banning members.

For hacking in public, I'm in favor of banning from league. A demo should exist and it should be reviewed by the admins who must unanimously vote it a hack.

Furthermore, I think league members should be held to a high standard. I think engaging in activities detrimental to the UrT community should be bannable offenses.

Historical examples of what I would consider a bannable offense:
1) Kenny DDOSing WTF's Teamspeak
2) Soli DDOSing ALPHA's server
3) NO clan & Kenny & GLAD-Jarek's participation in the server RCON stealing exploit.

This might not be pooular, but I personally do not enjoy entertaining individuals who attack the community.

for hacking, I think an anti-cheat is the way to go.

In the event that this is not possible, public demo review and banning members.

For hacking in public, I'm in favor of banning from league. A demo should exist and it should be reviewed by the admins who must unanimously vote it a hack.

Furthermore, I think league members should be held to a high standard. I think engaging in activities detrimental to the UrT community should be bannable offenses.

Historical examples of what I would consider a bannable offense:
1) Kenny DDOSing WTF's Teamspeak
2) Soli DDOSing ALPHA's server
3) NO clan & Kenny & GLAD-Jarek's participation in the server RCON stealing exploit.

This might not be pooular, but I personally do not enjoy entertaining individuals who attack the community.

I completely agree. I think those involved with attacking any part of the community in any way should be banned.

If you are to keep the UAA list in effect for the league then I suggest if a player is banned all demos should be retrieved and reviewed from the UAA to make sure it is a just ban and that the person should not be playing. Everyone has been called a hack for simply having a better score than everyone else. I know that for the most part UAA does make sure it is a just ban, but I don't know if I would trust every single ban they put through. So that is just my .02.

3east"]the uaa is like the sta in that they like to run things their way. they are not very civil in handling bans.

I actually might have a first league ban that I will hand off to x8 or cookies soon when I can get a hold of the demo.

so, just to summarize what i think people are saying:

using the UAA banlist is okay, but if someone has a problem they can appeal to the league and we'll review it personally.

so, just to summarize what i think people are saying:

using the UAA banlist is okay, but if someone has a problem they can appeal to the league and we'll review it personally.

Yup :)

[BludShoT]

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About what Cookies said, I agree, but what I am proposing for this new league is this:

"Community Amnesty"

As a part of beginning this new league, we all start with a blank slate. Everyone needs to cast aside old grudges and arguments. And everyone gets a chance to start over. People can still keep in mind who they think is trustworthy and who isn't, and who needs to have an eye kept on them, but other than that, it's a new beginning!!!

So that means NOT banning people for things that happened prior to now. No more us and them. Just us, the community.

That is phase 1.

Phase 2 is a correct set of rules and enforcement of those rules that make FTW a place where you are either a positive member of the community or you are silenced or eventually removed.


So that means that yes, the rules will contain things about all kinds of anti-community behaviour and consequences to such actions. But lets give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and bury old hatchets.

I think if we do that people are going to come to this new league with a fresh attitude and want to be positive members of the community.

And if not, then they will have been given MORE than enough opportunity, and no one will be able to say they didn't get a fair chance to be part of this.

I agree to the clean slate approach.

However, if we do not have an anti-cheat, hacking bans from STA should be maintained.

As should public hacking bans if that is the case.

Well yeah public hacking bans of course.

Who is banned for cheating in the STA though?

Carrying over league or public bans can be messy but I think it'd be best left up to the actual team captains of said new league to decide (ie: league wide vote) on whether or not banned players should be allowed to play.

This would include players that have been banned for being repetitively problematic within a league structure as well as players banned for cheating.

Carrying over league or public bans can be messy but I think it'd be best left up to the actual team captains of said new league to decide (ie: league wide vote) on whether or not banned players should be allowed to play.

This would include players that have been banned for being repetitively problematic within a league structure as well as players banned for cheating.

yes, i think this is something to definitely vote on when the time comes

Ya if you think text files are worthy of bans.

You almost gave Seti a virus!

Ya if you think text files are worthy of bans.

yeah, i mean i personally feel that STA stuff should be left out. UAA only included because it would keep the common riff-raff out and people do work there so we should take advantage of it

Who is banned for cheating in the STA though?

Who is banned for cheating in the STA though?
I think there is a considerable list actually.

We should inquire with an STA admin.

Perhaps implementing a list of ClanBase bans would help aswell.

Ya if you think text files are worthy of bans.

You'd probably fall under the category of being a problematic player.

So maybe someone can enlighten me...running a PB Urban Terror server actually does something ? From what I understand PunkBuster is a centralized banning system that actually needs a record of someone cheating before it bans them of the server...seeing how most URT servers aren't PB enabled doesn't that mean that it would technically be useless ?

What I mean is, there are a ton of bans for cheating in URT, but maybe only a handful are actually recorded by PunkBuster, if the cheater gets on a League server ( not that it's THAT hard to find something fishy ) the PB won't really know what to do with them right ?

Or does PB database contain certain "records" from every type of game cheats ? Just wondering...I'm not too familiar with how PB works, so I thought I'd ask.

Other than that, I think the Pub bans should definitely stay in place, I don't really know what to say when the discussion comes to "STA Bans" per se, I suppose since it's a new League we can forget and forgive ( obviously short of aimbot/wallhack violations from any instance ) and just re-establish good faith from the beginning. Seems fair to me.

Are we still planning to have demos for all players available for all to download?

If so I don't think it's even that important to carry over hacking bans, we should be able to quickly find and punish hackers trying to play in our league. If past hackers come and play in our league without hacking, then that's fine..

I'm thinking especially for public server bans. I mean yeah I get what it says about the person's character, that he would cheat online in any game makes him a sketchy person to have in your league, but still I mean, it's just a pub it's not a big deal. I would never try out a hack in a pub because I know how this community overreacts, but really what's the big deal about downloading one and trying it out in a pub for the hell of it?

The only rules and bans we have should only be concerned about hacking in our own league matches, everything that happens in UAA/public servers should be left there.

in my opinion

[BludShoT]

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Are we still planning to have demos for all players available for all to download?

If so I don't think it's even that important to carry over hacking bans, we should be able to quickly find and punish hackers trying to play in our league. If past hackers come and play in our league without hacking, then that's fine..

I'm thinking especially for public server bans. I mean yeah I get what it says about the person's character, that he would cheat online in any game makes him a sketchy person to have in your league, but still I mean, it's just a pub it's not a big deal. I would never try out a hack in a pub because I know how this community overreacts, but really what's the big deal about downloading one and trying it out in a pub for the hell of it?

The only rules and bans we have should only be concerned about hacking in our own league matches, everything that happens in UAA/public servers should be left there.

in my opinion

While trying out a hack in a pub may seem fun to you, it's not fun for the other players. Public hacking bans should be carried over to the league. If not, then even with an anti cheat or not, people will see these hackers and think if they're still hacking during the match or wonder if they've found some way around the anti-cheat system, which only causes more problems. So by allowing public hackers to be allowed even with an anti cheat system in place does us no good, because the original intent behind the anti-cheat system was to provide the community with a peace of mind that no one is hacking during the match, and to guarantee a clean match.

lol. Whatever, whenever I pubbed against a hacker it just became more of a challenge to kill him. I don't take it too seriously

And they'll be able to see their demo, so what's the problem? If the demo shows him hacking he'll be banned

I personally think allowing people a second chance to be an upstanding member of this community is a good thing.

It seems to me that there are probably some people that have been so egregious in the past that a clean slate is unfathomable. I'm not sure how you determine who that is. Perhaps some kind of panel to vote on it could be established.

I personally think allowing people a second chance to be an upstanding member of this community is a good thing.

It seems to me that there are probably some people that have been so egregious in the past that a clean slate is unfathomable. I'm not sure how you determine who that is. Perhaps some kind of panel to vote on it could be established.

I agree, second chances are good. A clean slate is in order. I'm just referring to if they offend again after the slate was wiped clean (ie: hacking in pubs ).

I just think our focus should be limited to the demos we'll be getting from official matches. The hack-review team will be more effective if they have a narrow focus and aren't trying to patrol all public servers.

I think it would be fair to say that certain people who have had issues in the past would be given a little less leeway in matters if issues arose again. I say this because I don't imagine there would be a lot of people who would vote against banning them taking into account past transgressions.

If past hackers or supposed hackers are to be given a clean slate and what not. I suggest that instead of the admins having to take even more time out of all the stuff they do that we have an expert demo team. With this you can have members from different clans viewing these demos and and if need be can give the admins the demos of people actually hacking.

Also with that members of clans are not allowed to view their teams demos. That way there will be no question when it comes to a player being banned for cheating during a match.

Thoughts???

i think the current plan is to involve the "clan liaisons" in the dispute process. this would also include getting their opinions on demos that have fallen into question.

any bans will be voted on by the clan liaisons once the admins have collected evidence and present it to that board.

I just think our focus should be limited to the demos we'll be getting from official matches. The hack-review team will be more effective if they have a narrow focus and aren't trying to patrol all public servers.

i imaged it more that the demo is brought to the admins by a clan leader/captain who operates the public server. they're the only one who'd have the logs to prove who was doing it - the admins wouldn't have those records

I just think our focus should be limited to the demos we'll be getting from official matches. The hack-review team will be more effective if they have a narrow focus and aren't trying to patrol all public servers.

i imaged it more that the demo is brought to the admins by a clan leader/captain who operates the public server. they're the only one who'd have the logs to prove who was doing it - the admins wouldn't have those records

It's still time for the admins to review the demo and then decide if it warrants further investigation.. I still think it should be out of our 'jurisdiction'

So maybe someone can enlighten me...running a PB Urban Terror server actually does something ? From what I understand PunkBuster is a centralized banning system that actually needs a record of someone cheating before it bans them of the server...seeing how most URT servers aren't PB enabled doesn't that mean that it would technically be useless ?

What I mean is, there are a ton of bans for cheating in URT, but maybe only a handful are actually recorded by PunkBuster, if the cheater gets on a League server ( not that it's THAT hard to find something fishy ) the PB won't really know what to do with them right ?

Or does PB database contain certain "records" from every type of game cheats ? Just wondering...I'm not too familiar with how PB works, so I thought I'd ask.

Other than that, I think the Pub bans should definitely stay in place, I don't really know what to say when the discussion comes to "STA Bans" per se, I suppose since it's a new League we can forget and forgive ( obviously short of aimbot/wallhack violations from any instance ) and just re-establish good faith from the beginning. Seems fair to me.
PB is integrated directly into the exe as well as running independently as its own process. If someone is using a hack running off of q3.exe, PB catches it by noticing the activity; it also monitors cvars for malicious settings. The independent PB process monitors more complex hacks that run independently of q3.exe...it monitors for specific programs in memory. It runs off of a database of known hacks, and doesn't require any prior data on a player; if it sees traces of mombot anywhere, it permabans from all PB-enabled servers without anybody having to do anything. If you suspect someone of cheating but PB doesn't catch them, an admin can have PB take a screenshot of the gamer's screen and then you can see if they're using a wallhack or something...you see what the gamer sees. It's a brilliant system and I've enjoyed and supported it (it's the best and only of its kind) since its release. It had problems many, many years ago...but most people that say it sucks are just piggybacking off of hearsay from when it was new software. Yeah, it caused lag in the beginning and occasional crashes, but that's long-gone and it's been solid for a number of years. We just need people to purchase a serial for Q3 to be able to use it...which is relatively inexpensive if you buy a used copy of Q3.


Also, I think cheaters should be banned from the league if they cheat outside of the league. If someone is a known child-molester but says "I want to attend your child's birthday party, and you can trust me because I promise not to do so on this occasion, since you're asking me not to...but yeah, those videos of me doing unspeakable things are irrelevant"--I wouldn't allow them to attend the party. I think demos of cheaters speak for themselves as the gamer being dishonest; why should we trust them if they say they won't cheat anymore? Especially since most cheaters deny cheating in the first place, but once they're caught have nothing to say about it...why wouldn't they do the same in this new league? They can lie about promising not to cheat--and indeed, the might not cheat for the first few (or very important) matches--but I would fully expect them to try and fly below the radar with their cheats and deny cheating until they're caught in the act. If they want a second, third and fourth chance, I say to them--go play in a different league that condones cheating.

honestly, we really need anti-cheat

demo review only catchs blatant NOOB hacking